Dialogue: Jesus Christ and his True Disciples

Dear Sir,

Thank you for your kind words. For me personally it is not a disillusionment but an enlightening experience to find out that common sense and religion can go hand in hand. For me it has always been unbelievable that just by "believing on Jesus Christ" a place was assured in heaven and all one's sins would be forgiven... what about one's own reponsibility, etc ...what about those born in this world who have never even heard about Jesus Christ? To see the story in another light has given it meaning to me and without it, I would certainly have left Christianity behind me. In the words of Besant in her book Esoteric Christianity: "We cannot too much insist on the fact that Christianity gains, it does not lose, when knowledge is added to faith and virtue" and gives a reference to II Peter 1:5.

As for the living Master, firstly, I believe that He lives ever, as do we also. He is a definite presence in this world and still sends his positive influences over all incarnated mankind. The second side is the Master within ourselves: "My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you" Gal 4:19. From this point of view, the Master is constantly incarnated in the flesh, if we but open our eyes to see it. What is asked of us is not to blindly believe what others tell us (i.e. someone who heads/leads the church or congregation of people), but to find the truth within ourselves. What I mean to say is that the church/congregation is an organisation that is meant to assist us in finding the truth, but is not the truth itself. Our function as chaplains/priests/preachers/etc is to help people to help themselves - give them the tools they need so that they do not need us to lean on!

I hope I have somewhat answered your question... again, thank you for your response - it is always great to receive feedback - more often that not it only sheds more light on the subject for all concerned!

Best wishes and regards, yours in Christ's service,

Markus van Alphen

Dear Bro Markus, Peace & Love.

Thank you. Your reply was most satisfactory. It may have been my misuse of
the word diillusionment or just symantics...Otherwise, I am pleased that you
were pleased and I am pleased that I was pleased.

Look forward to a continuing mutual effort, for life is beautiful and all things are life.

May the blessings be,

Carlo

Dear Bro Carlo,

Thank you for your message. I found your use of the word "disillusionment" interesting, as it is a different way of looking at it, which I would not have done if you had not used it. I believe the choice of words people make is a lot more than semantics, therefore there is no "misuse", as far as I am concerned. I generally have as point of departure the people in my environment, to whom ideas such as purported in the magazine are ordinary. Of course, for the person who views Christianity from a more traditional viewpoint, having this viewpoint challenged could indeed be a disillusionment. As you point out, this disillusionment is then necessary in order to grow to deeper understanding. I believe you would have two categories of people, those who would just say "rubbish!" and carry on, and those who seriously start using the intellectual capacities they have been endowed with (irrespective if they come to the conclusion that their original viewpoint is incorrect or correct).

Kind regards, in Christ's service,

Markus van Alphen

Laura Okazaki

Dear Laura,

Your question on stoning:

HPB in Isis Unveiled Vol 2, p255 "Had the Mosaic law prevailed, Jesus should have been lapidated. (The Talmudistic records claim that, after having been hung, he was lapidated and buried under the water at the junction of two streams. 'Mishna Sanhedrin', vol vi, p4; 'Talmud', of Babylon, same article, 43a, 67a)"

She continues in a footnote: "The Babylonian Talmud, tractate Sanhedrin, fol. 67a:'...the witnesses who were listening outside bring him to the Beth din, and have him stoned. And thus they did to Ben Stada in Lydda, and they hung him on the eve of Passover. Ben Stada was Ben Pandira'." On Ben Pandira she says (note on p 386 of IU II): "In Rabbinical works he is called in turn: Jeshua ben Pantera, Jeshu ben Pandera, Jeshu ben Pandira or Ben (Bar) Pandera"

This information I got via Spierenburg's New Testament Commentaries of HPB pp 121 and 52. In the footnote on p 121 there is also the following reference: "Mishnah Sanhedrin, Perek 6, Mishnah 4; ed. Albeck, Seder Nezikin, Jerusalem 1977, p187-8: ''All that have been stoned must be hanged. So Rabbi Eliezer. But the Sages say: "None is hanged save the blasphemer and the idolator."'"

The Babylonian Talmud, tractate Sanhedrin, fol 43a: "On the eve of the Passover Jeshu was hanged. For fourty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practised sourcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf'. But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!"

Besant alludes in her book "Esoteric Christianity" that the crucifixion did not necessarily happen. The three chapters "The Historical Christ", "The Mythic Christ" and "The Mystic Christ" in that book are really worth reading. She also holds, as does GRS Mead, that Jesus was born around 105 BC.

Furthermore, in Hodson's book Clairvoyant Investigations of Christian Origins and Ceremonial (St. Alban Press 1977  pp. 2-3):

"His Death
The statement of St. Paul is the true account of his death which occurred as a result of a planned but sudden attack by stoning, the body then being hung on a tree. I do not wish altogether to destroy the orthodox crucifixion account, since it has value in the more mystical sense, historically in error though it is.

I think he would have saved himself from the stoning--by disappearing, for example--had not an early stone struck him on the forehead and rendered him senseless physically. The rest followed in all its tragedy, leaving much of the work he was to do to a later stage. His body was submitted to indignities that his disciples could not prevent and many of them were ill-treated grievously because of their association with him. There were women, but they advisedly withdrew when the brutalities began."

Hope this helps you somewhat...

Yours in Christ's service,

Markus van Alphen

That's a very provocative idea.  HPB does say however "had the Mosaic law prevailed....."  The NT authors make it very clear that the Romans executed Jesus and their preferred method for criminals was crucifixion.  I'll have to do some thinking and meditating on this but it seems HPB leaves room for speculation with that above phrase.  What do you think?

I hope you don't mind my discussing this with you.  The symbolism of the cross is core in conventional Christianity and even esoteric Christianity so I'm intrigued by the alternative.

Thank you,

Laura Okazaki

Dear Laura,

Of course I do not mind. As regards the symbolism of the cross, I wrote an article "The Way of Sacrifice", which is also published in the ECEM, in which I touch on several aspects. One that I perhaps should have added is the similarity between the highest initiation in the Egyptian Mysteries and the crucifixion account. To paraphrase the Egyptian initiatory rite in brief: The neophyte lies in a cruciform hollow and both wrists are tied to the "cross". The ends of the rope are laid in the hands of the neophyte, so that they can release themselves, showing that the initiation is undergone voluntarily and entirely of own free will. A drink is then taken, which has the effect that the person leaves the body and spends three days and three nights in the astral plane, indeed wresting with all kinds of astral phenomena. On the morning after the third night, the still entranced body is placed in such a position that the first rays of the rising sun awaken the new initiate. The sun rises in his/her life and the way of death and resurrection has been followed. These initiations took place in the pyramids and other temples and sufficient evidence is in the museums (I am told especially the British museum in London) to verify these accounts. Remember that the Egyptian cross is a Tau (T-form) and the ansated tau (T with the rising sun on the horizontal arm) was the symbol of the cross with the rising sun above it, i.e. the symbol of the fully initiated - hence the ansated tau is the symbol of life.

As to how Jesus died, it isn't that important to me. My "faith" is not rooted in a belief that Jesus died on the cross for my sins... (which is a misinterpretation of the saying that he took the sins of the world on his shoulders - i.e. had undergone all things, i.e. had reached perfection/adeptship). To me, the actual history is a by-the-by and the imagery in the gospel stories is what it is about. The imagery is still applicable today. My suggestion is (and Easter is an ideal time to do this) to allow the image to enter your consciousness during your meditations, without even attempting to put any interpretation on it. The cross then becomes an even more potent symbol than merely that given in the gospel accounts... What I am trying to say is that the crucifixion drama does not lose one iota of its importance if it happened that it was not historically correct, or entirely correct.

Hope this helps! Yours sincerely,

Markus van Alphen